Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Discussion related to the Engine functionality, implementations and API.
provisory
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by provisory » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:44 pm

It seems to me, that most of what your wrote would be solved, if the Distant was the default mode of the sun. In this case there could be a Physically correct switch, which triggered the current behavior.

Note, I dont't have any problems with the current behavior of the sun, I love, that LuxCore is phisically based, and works like in reality (and in photography), where sun is bright, really really bright.

By the way what is the problem with current sun and clamping? Is it just that you have to write 10000000 instead of 10?

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lacilaci
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by lacilaci » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:01 pm

provisory wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:44 pm
It seems to me, that most of what your wrote would be solved, if the Distant was the default mode of the sun. In this case there could be a Physically correct switch, which triggered the current behavior.

Note, I dont't have any problems with the curren hit behavior of the sun, I love, that LuxCore is phisically based, and works like in reality (and in photography), where sun is bright, really really bright.

By the way what is the problem with current sun and clamping? Is it just that you have to write 10000000 instead of 10?
When we want to talk reality on this planet then the only "distant light" is the sun (maybe moon too). So no, distant light needs to go, there is only a sun and ideally a flexible sun :D.

Yes you are correct writing 100 000 is a big deal for me :D...
No, the real issue for example is that if we can use a clamping value of 100 safely for all lights we can use is as a default preset and if everything works well then hide the clamping setting behind an advanced tab, further making luxcore easy to use and fast by default.
However sun is so powerful that if you want to use it you need to use a very high value otherwise logpower+clamping will destroy it's direct contribution and everything looks wrong.
But in the end the solution might be to make clamping work only on indirect lighting. But even then, we need direct color control, compensate sun power when changin size and make distant light option obsolete so that it can be removed...

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epilectrolytics
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by epilectrolytics » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:07 pm

Regarding sunsky:
I'd like to see a "haze" option that fades distant objects automatically into the sky color
(basically all materials would be mixed with emissive sky color according to their distance from the camera).
This would provide a depth effect to exterior renders.
It would be similar to the image pipeline fog, but no post but a render effect and as such compatible with reflections, refractions and DOF, also no antialias problems.

Because composing an exterior setting normally involves cheating on the scales (distant hills would be modeled smaller and placed closer) the haze setting needs a start parameter and an exponential mode.
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lacilaci
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by lacilaci » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:12 pm

epilectrolytics wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:07 pm
Regarding sunsky:
I'd like to see a "haze" option that fades distant objects automatically into the sky color
(basically all materials would be mixed with emissive sky color according to their distance from the camera).
This would provide a depth effect to exterior renders.
It would be similar to the image pipeline fog, but no post but a render effect and as such compatible with reflections, refractions and DOF, also no antialias problems.

Because composing an exterior setting normally involves cheating on the scales (distant hills would be modeled smaller and placed closer) the haze setting needs a start parameter and an exponential mode.
so something like a quick and automated world volume setup, with maybe only distance parameter.. could be nice.

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epilectrolytics
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by epilectrolytics » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:20 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:12 pm
so something like a quick and automated world volume setup, with maybe only distance parameter.. could be nice.
Yes, only without the godrays :)

The problem with realistic clouds and atmospheres is that you would need to model in true scales to get the effects right, like putting 3000m large mountain objects in 10 000 m distance, I'm assuming that would create floating point range issues...

The sunsky itself is a fake workaround thing but totally legit IMHO, and once you accept that you see it provides lots of opportunities to improve, getting a resolution independent customizable HDRI thing, with color, haze, and maybe simple cloud layers (spherical projection type).
Last edited by epilectrolytics on Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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alpistinho
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by alpistinho » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:26 pm

epilectrolytics wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:07 pm
Regarding sunsky:
I'd like to see a "haze" option that fades distant objects automatically into the sky color
Isn't this the Mist image pipeline plugin?

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epilectrolytics
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by epilectrolytics » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:30 pm

alpistinho wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:26 pm

Isn't this the Mist image pipeline plugin?
Yeah but as a post effect you get issues when seen in mirrors, through glass, Depth of field, antialiasing and such.
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provisory
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by provisory » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:44 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:01 pm
When we want to talk reality on this planet then the only "distant light" is the sun (maybe moon too).
Oh yes, and the Sun is not so much brighter than a lightbulb. ;)
lacilaci wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:01 pm
So no, distant light needs to go, there is only a sun and ideally a flexible sun :D.
...
But even then, we need direct color control, compensate sun power when changin size and make distant light option obsolete so that it can be removed...
So, do you say:
  1. Get rid of distant light
  2. Change (downgrade) sun light to behave like the distant light
I would rather say, the sun light could have two modes in the GUI, labeled as:
  • Artist friendly
  • Phisically correct
In the background the former would be the distant light, and the latter would be the current sun light.
lacilaci wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:01 pm
No, the real issue for example is that if we can use a clamping value of 100 safely for all lights we can use is as a default preset and if everything works well then hide the clamping setting behind an advanced tab, further making luxcore easy to use and fast by default.
I highly doubt that a constant value for clamping could work for every scene, but fortunetally there is already a suggesting feature, which could work as a dynamic "default" (and it works with real sun brightness too).

provisory
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by provisory » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:56 pm

A small suggestion for the GUI:
I think it would be easier to set the brightness of the lamps in lumens instead of watts and efficacy. As incandescent bulbs are becoming increasingly irrelevant, the lumens value is being used more and more widely.

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lacilaci
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Re: Usability and Luxcore workflow streamlining ideas

Post by lacilaci » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:26 am

provisory wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:56 pm
A small suggestion for the GUI:
I think it would be easier to set the brightness of the lamps in lumens instead of watts and efficacy. As incandescent bulbs are becoming increasingly irrelevant, the lumens value is being used more and more widely.
I agree. maybe atleast a switch/dropdown menu with lumens by default.

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