dark juice

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wasd
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Re: dark juice

Post by wasd » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:12 pm

I'd buy a pack of juice and shoot a reference, but I currently have no sun available and probably won't have for few days.
But we know already that luxcore currently has no way to make diffuse volume in a glass right.
CPU Bidir (sometimes GPU Path) + Metropolis | Log Power | Core i5-4570

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lacilaci
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Re: dark juice

Post by lacilaci » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:47 pm

wasd wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:12 pm
I'd buy a pack of juice and shoot a reference, but I currently have no sun available and probably won't have for few days.
But we know already that luxcore currently has no way to make diffuse volume in a glass right.
You don't need reference, everything will be just fine if the issue gets a fix...

here's a better illustration of the problem,

glass invisible to camera, volume only:
volumeglass.png
so you can see the glass is completely overshadowing the volume

and just for fun if we enable lighttracing, we can see how things should go within the volume(of course it only works with glass disabled so we don't get sds)
volumeglassLT.png

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lacilaci
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Re: dark juice

Post by lacilaci » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:58 pm

another example, here you can see that the juice in the glass is actually even brighter thanks to caustics from glass, the only thing overpowering the brightness should be bright reflection on the glass and definitely no weird shadows.
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volumeglassLT2.png

provisory
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Re: dark juice

Post by provisory » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:02 pm
no, they don't look nice, it looks wrong.

Does this look like to you it would in real life?
I don't know your settings, but I like my results, e.g. this one:
(Sun+sky light only, BiDir+Metro)
Image

With some brightening and color balance it would look something like your reference image:

Image

Have you tried Bidir+Metro?

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lacilaci
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Re: dark juice

Post by lacilaci » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:22 pm

provisory wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm

I don't know your settings, but I like my results, e.g. this one:
did you just completely ignore this part?
Image

here you have it in 4K, on the left that's how it needs to look when it's in glass!
volumeglassLT4k.png

I'm not discussing if you like your results, I don't care about half working bidir, about hdris, about postprocessing.

I want my juice in glass to look good correct under any lighting conditions straight out of luxcore as fast as it can, cause that's how it needs to work.
Right now there is clearly no way to render it properly and getting good results without going through weird limitations is not possible as it seems.

Afaik, other renderers use some shadow tricks for glass, if that's what is needed then so be it. If there is a better way (actually better not one that will require me to do some circus tricks) then so be it.. But now it's not working as it needs to.

provisory
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Re: dark juice

Post by provisory » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:48 pm

Just for the record, it works with built in Sun+sky, without HDRI, from any angle, straight out of LuxCore, without any tricks and post-processing.
(I only mentioned post-processing, because my render is darker and has different color balance than your reference.)

Yes, it currently only works well with BiDir+Metro, and it would be much better if it worked with path tracing (and GPU) too.
lacilaci wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:22 pm
did you just completely ignore this part?
I just can't get that bad results. Would you share your scene with the settings?
Maybe is it something with OCL? I don't have discrete GPU, so only tried CPU.

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lacilaci
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Re: dark juice

Post by lacilaci » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:06 pm

provisory wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:48 pm

Just for the record, it works with built in Sun+sky, without HDRI, from any angle, straight out of LuxCore, without any tricks and post-processing.
I don't know how to respond to this, what works? If those results you get work for you, then great, I'm happy for you. Good luck..

provisory wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:48 pm

Yes, it currently only works well with BiDir+Metro, and it would be much better if it worked with path tracing (and GPU) too.
Again with this bidir+metro... Bidir itself isn't working well, it's slow and no matter what you say it won't do sds, they will never converge properly.. I don't want to hear about bidir.

provisory wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:48 pm

I just can't get that bad results. Would you share your scene with the settings?
Maybe is it something with OCL? I don't have discrete GPU, so only tried CPU.
I'm using your own scene that you shared 2 or so pages back. I literally just flattened the floor so that I don't get some back bounce light and copied the glasses, that's it that's the scene. CPU or GPU renders the same.

But I spent already way too much time on this, so for the last time.

If you're happy with what your'e getting, good for you. I'm not happy and I know that it works differently in other renderers so the question is if it can be fixed. For that I guess I have to wait until Dade comes back home.

wasd
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Re: dark juice

Post by wasd » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:02 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:06 pm
so the question is if it can be fixed
Maybe this would work http://iliyan.com/publications/VertexMerging
or this https://graphics.pixar.com/library/Cau ... /paper.pdf
and this I think claims to be better than those above https://www.academia.edu/20210556/Unbia ... Simulation.
Also mister Hachisuka has many interesting studies on differents matters https://www.ci.i.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~hachisuka/
CPU Bidir (sometimes GPU Path) + Metropolis | Log Power | Core i5-4570

kintuX
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Re: dark juice

Post by kintuX » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:33 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:06 pm
I'm not happy and I know that it works differently in other renderers so the question is if it can be fixed. For that I guess I have to wait until Dade comes back home.
Please, then show some comparisons to "juice" you've done with other engines.
I'm interested to see facts about how much they differ from your experience.

I realized there are flaws in all engines quite soon. Almost immediately after every new beginning. But now, after years, I kinda started to feel good about the development overall and planned advancements. So let's stay on track here... 8-) ... optimized, better materials are the next level. Another best thing to come soon. :D

And here's my go:
A Filmic, high contrasty Dark Juice surrounded by Disney's Metals... but the Pills are M.I.A. :lol:

juice_sunsky_s_003-filmic-H.jpg

PS
I believe that what makes artist the Artist, is the fact that it does its best with whatever tools it has at hand. And doesn't put the blame on its flaws for own misfortune. Remember, high expectations brought Icarus its demise. Or maybe I'm always wrong :D

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lacilaci
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Re: dark juice

Post by lacilaci » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:04 am

kintuX wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:33 pm
lacilaci wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:06 pm
I'm not happy and I know that it works differently in other renderers so the question is if it can be fixed. For that I guess I have to wait until Dade comes back home.
Please, then show some comparisons to "juice" you've done with other engines.
I'm interested to see facts about how much they differ from your experience.
I started this thread with comparison to what I get in cycles.

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