ENV cache persistence

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kintuX
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Re: ENV cache persistence

Post by kintuX » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:13 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:45 am
Can I expect problems...?
Yes, I'd still expect problems - namely flickering...
Example in forums: "Env. Light Visibility Cache"

Edit:
Checked some more pages around (forward&backward), but can't find all the posts...
(would be great, if we could search on specific topic for posts by the user)
anyways here's just the ENV cache video (w/o persistence)
https://streamable.com/d30uq

Edit2:
Also, present Sobol sampler with long vertical linings makes rendering w/ OCL for animation useless.
Surprisingly (or not), results were better before the change.

Edit3:
BTW, there are differences between CPU vs OCL :?
Using OCL:
A. Glass produces brighter caustics (refractive) /// Notice darker shadow with CPU
B. Metal is missing reflections

Raw comparison @ 160 samples (RAW renders pack attached):
Image
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lacilaci
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Re: ENV cache persistence

Post by lacilaci » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:53 am

is this problem present even in latest daily builds? I haven't noticed missing reflecitons (not yet) but I rarely use this env.cache

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lacilaci
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Re: ENV cache persistence

Post by lacilaci » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:14 pm

Some anim...

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lacilaci
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Re: ENV cache persistence

Post by lacilaci » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:16 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:53 am
is this problem present even in latest daily builds? I haven't noticed missing reflecitons (not yet) but I rarely use this env.cache
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lacilaci
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Re: ENV cache persistence

Post by lacilaci » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:17 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:53 am
is this problem present even in latest daily builds? I haven't noticed missing reflecitons (not yet) but I rarely use this env.cache
Last edited by lacilaci on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

kintuX
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Re: ENV cache persistence

Post by kintuX » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:07 pm

Here are simple videos done with Blender 2.81a & a latest daily BlendLuxCore.
Scene properties: diffused walls, HDRI lit, Halt @ 200 samples, Sobol, OCL, PGI & ENV caches, no clamp, resolution 720p

- RAW video link (@streamable)

- OIDN video link (@streamable)

Aha, flickers.
Persistence is out for now: Blender still missing a beat (since July 2019, IIRC) & LuxCoreUI isn't made for animation.

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lacilaci
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Re: ENV cache problems

Post by lacilaci » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:45 am

kintuX wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:07 pm
Here are simple videos done with Blender 2.81a & a latest daily BlendLuxCore.
Scene properties: diffused walls, HDRI lit, Halt @ 200 samples, Sobol, OCL, PGI & ENV caches, no clamp, resolution 720p

- RAW video link (@streamable)

- OIDN video link (@streamable)

Aha, flickers.
Persistence is out for now: Blender still missing a beat (since July 2019, IIRC) & LuxCoreUI isn't made for animation.
Sadly persistence only solves one issue still..

1.Heavily obstructed exterior(dense foliage for example) will result in pretty bad cache which might need different settings (more ram more preproces)
2.Preproces and ram usage is also varying depending on camera position (autolookup radius isn't exposed in blender but if it would then this thing isn't really automatic and defeats it's purpose)
3.low clamping values, which might be necessary for fast animations are also causing trouble with cache (visible cache pattern etc...)

I would rather see an advanced portal which could handle anything that's coming from outside and maybe autodisable when camera is on it's outer side... Now that animations are very doable using luxcore we should start shaving off seconds from user setup to startup. Env.cache can't be fully automated and is harder to predict than portals imho... So far I rather rely on fake additional lights than rely just on environment, that isn't good either.

kintuX
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Re: ENV cache problems

Post by kintuX » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:49 pm

lacilaci wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:45 am
Sadly persistence only solves one issue still..

1.Heavily obstructed exterior(dense foliage for example) will result in pretty bad cache which might need different settings (more ram more preproces)
2.Preproces and ram usage is also varying depending on camera position (autolookup radius isn't exposed in blender but if it would then this thing isn't really automatic and defeats it's purpose)
3.low clamping values, which might be necessary for fast animations are also causing trouble with cache (visible cache pattern etc...)

I would rather see an advanced portal which could handle anything that's coming from outside and maybe autodisable when camera is on it's outer side... Now that animations are very doable using luxcore we should start shaving off seconds from user setup to startup. Env.cache can't be fully automated and is harder to predict than portals imho... So far I rather rely on fake additional lights than rely just on environment, that isn't good either.
Well, first persistence for Env. cache needs to be exposed in Blender. Then we'll test and see the facts.

About other points, I somewhat agree...
Although, IMHO, to have rendering working fast, one needs to know how to bypass limitations aka "fake the effects" and introduce bias or invest to get extras - fake from experience, get other tools, farms, partners or workers (just like with any business).
Primarily I see this as an essential skill of an artist and not the limitation of an engine. Artist's bias, its skill and style is exposed, shown through his work - that's the point of an artist. Unlike the results of those used to VRay who usually tend to transfer their visual style to every other PT engine by habit. And then complain. No one can help those. While on the other hand, limiting 'puristic' or naive, surrealistic, photo-realistic, naturalistic artist by breaking its tools (making unbiased into a biased engine), it's a sin :twisted: ;)

Anyways... yes, choose wisely for yourself what to rely on & keep up the good work

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Re: ENV cache persistence

Post by B.Y.O.B. » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:35 pm

Env. light cache persistence is now supported in BlendLuxCore.

kintuX
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Re: ENV cache persistence

Post by kintuX » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:05 pm

B.Y.O.B. wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:35 pm
Env. light cache persistence is now supported in BlendLuxCore.
Yes! :D Thank you.

Video with ENV & PGI persistent cache on (@streamable)
- RAW version
- OIDN version
eh, compression ruined both

Anyways, caches work fine.
Tho now I wonder, if anything can be done to stabilize light tracing (& prevent flickering caustics)? Are there any such plans?
Or could it be this specific setting: HDRI + Sun, both using own Light Group? I suspect the Sun is the cause... :?
I also noticed much more pronounced individual fireflies and I had to lower clamping way below Suggested Value -
set 123.456 |VS| 222.390.304 suggested

Altho, still - Magnificent work! :D

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